Eric L. Mings Ph.D. wrote:
>
>Now that I
> am wrapping up those responsibilities I will be getting back involved in
> letterboxing.

Does this mean no more Dr. Mings jokes?

Just kidding Eric... I know you have a great sense of humor. I am glad
you have chosen to join this list! Welcome welcome welcome!
--
Thom Cheney
tcgrafx... among other things

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Tom wrote:

>Does this mean no more Dr. Mings jokes?

Ya know...., the list archives are searchable ;-)

Looking forward to getting back involved!


Regards,

Eric Mings Ph.D.


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Eric,
I'm glad to see that you decided to return to the hobby. You are an
imaginative person and I hated to see petty things from the past stand in the
way of us all working together for a common goal.

I'm sure you've noticed that our new concepts have been quite popular here.
We have taken a very democratic approach to everything that's been done. The
primary contributors to the website have been submitting their ideas to this
group. In turn, the group has been outstanding at putting forth their
opinions and ideas. In this way, each new feature that is added to the
website has aspects that have come about as a result of everyone's input.

So please forgive us if we sometimes sound a bit possesive about the systems
we have in place. Many of us have come to feel that what was originally Dan's
website has become OUR website. We all helped build it, and we all want it to
succeed.

I think it is great if you want to continue to devote effort to some of your
own letterboxing resources. The internet is a big place, and I am always
happy to see new resources being added... especially if they are free!!!

I also hope you will understand, however, that some of your resources will not
be of use to many of us. We have our system in place, and we feel strongly
about it, because we helped make it the way it is. Some of us have devoted
many hours to putting this all together in a way that everyone is happy with.

I know, Eric, that you are a very busy man. I understand that you have had
many important things to devote your time to, besides letterboxing. If you do
have some extra time at this point to get re-involved, I guess I, for one,
would rather see you devoting your energies towards helping us build on what
we have established rather than rebuilding alternate systems.

If you could find it in yourself to work with Dan, Randy, and the rest of us
to improve upon the site that THE PEOPLE have created, and devote the rest of
your free time to placing new letterboxes, you will be serving the good of the
hobby much more than you will be by trying to reestablish your old talk list
and catalog.

Before working on this project, I considered myself to be one of those types
who did his best work alone. I am anything but antisocial, yet I was not
overly comfortable with working in a team environment. Maybe you sometimes
feel the same way, Eric.

My way of dealing with this has been to take my ideas and run with them, up to
a point where I feel it has become obvious what I'm trying to do. Then, I
turn the whole mess over to the group for input. Sometimes they love what
I've done. Sometimes they tear me apart (in a very courteous and respectful
manner, of course). I always contemplate their input for a couple of days and
then see how I can make changes to incorporate their suggestions. Sometimes,
I fight back feelings that my original vision has been compromised.

I have never regretted doing things this way. In every single case, I have
ended up liking the results of my work better after others' feelings were
incorporated than I would have if I'd done it all according to my initial plan
of action.

It is great to hear from you again, Eric. You have much to offer our group.
I hope you will offer it.

Sincerely,
Mitch

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Eric L. Mings Ph.D. wrote:
> I have created two letterboxes in the Orlando area and placed
> one already (although I think I will move it slightly in the near
> future due to too easy visibility).

Hi Eric, I think that's a good idea. We're failry certain that
several boxes were stumbled on accidentally in our group and this
may have resulted in thefts or vandalism.

> I will be listing them soon in the online letteboxing catalog
> that many of you may remember that I created a while back.
> Hopefully will list them on Dan's site also.

Send them in and I will be glad to post them for you.
mailto:elf@pclink.com

> I am currently reworking the International Letterboxing Club
> site (letterboxing.com) to make the catalog accessibe and very
> easy for anyone to enter new letterboxes any time they wish.

Is ILC now public non-profit? I assume that for "anyone to enter new
letterboxes any time they wish" means the service is now open and
non-profit. There was a good deal of confusion on this point the last
time we corresponded. This resulted in a clear separation of the two
site's visions/discussions. It also resulted in a certain amount of
concern (even paranoia) among some of the Dartmoor letterboxers who
feared the eventuality of a profit-center relating to letterboxing or
even non-profit promotion which they felt may attract people for the
wrong reasons and turn the hobby into something undesirable.

Since that time I have been approached by several advertisers
who wished to use the Letterboxing USA site. I have not talked
to them at all and will not unless there is some widespread consensus
on the issue and also a way to ensure that any money that may be
collected could positively be funneled back to the hobby, esp. to
help newbies and/or kids get started in the fun. No money should be
used by me unless it is needed to prevent a burdensome cost associated
with providing resources on this site. But that is not likely at this
point because other people have offered resources and time that will
in all likelihood (if they are able to follow through with their
offers) prevent us from ever having to raise funds.

I regret the unpleasant and uneasy way in which we parted ways
several months back, but I hope we will now be able to work more
harmoniously. Thank you for being bold enough to come forth on
the list apparently with no ill feelings and with a willingness to
become involved and contribute time and energy to what has become
a very democratic, "group-oriented" approach.

I think you will be impressed with the rapport, comradery and good
will that has become a hallmark of the Letterboxing USA talk list.
What is even more impressive is that we have accomplished this with
very little moderation/external controls. A while back a guy came
in with some sharp, terse and inappropriate political comments (with
no apologies). Several members admonished him forthwith. He promptly
left the list. So it has been self-moderating in that list members
seem to be of one mind regarding what's being discussed and seem to be
able to mildly correct others without producing any undue ill feelings.
Also, they have become very skilled at discussing and agreeing on new
features prior to them being added to the site. I no longer consider
this to be "my" site as the site (with the possible exception of the
mapping) has largely been the product of all member's ideas and input.

Randy Hall keeps a separate copy (mirror) of the site mainly to ensure
against exclusive control of the clues and/or exclusive publishing of
the clues. It also serves as a backup in case of accidental loss of the
information. But all my work is free and forever in the hands of those
who I consider to be owners of the site (that is all members).
If it is OK with the group (esp. Randy) I invite you to take the clues
also, and, if you are able, to provide additional non-profit services
that may augment what we have been providing with the map interface at
Letterboxing USA. If possible, in the future, we may yet be able to
combine the two systems and thereby offer them the best of both worlds.

I would ask you also to consult Randy especially if you desire to do
anything which requires collaboration with the data or clues. Randy has
the greatest comprehension of this and is gathering the data into a
single list by date, name, location, etc.

But in any case, and in any event, welcome to the list. Anything you
need, don't hesitate to ask as someone here will likely be able to help
you.

Truly,
Dan


Ps. Here is our Letterboxing USA Virtual Welcome Wagon:
Feel free to use this to contact people who may be able to help
you or whom you may be able to help.

Greg and Ginny Bradley, Kansas City, Missouri: Hiking, Fishing, Camping
& Canoeing, Real estate, Major airline
mailto:bradman@blitz-it.net

Nisa Simila, Age 30, New Hampshire: Speech-Language Pathologist,
Neophyte artist & Finder of things
mailto:teapot@teapot.mv.com

Michelle Spalding, Age 37, Colorado: Artist & Web publisher
Mailto:hoofbeads@aol.com
http://www.gigagraphica.com/michelle/

Dennis Williams, Age 33, Oklahoma: History & Geography
mailto:dwilliam@snu.edu

Marty Chamberlain, Age 35, Pennsylvania: Outdoors & Exploring The Cave
of The Unknown
mailto:martyc@cyberdude.com

Tom Cooch, Age 54, Vermont: Teaching & Hiking
mailto:tcooch@sover.net

Tammy Abernethy, Age 38, North Carolina: Agri-research & Dog stamps
mailto:tammy@unity.ncsu.edu

Thom Cheney, Age 37, Oregon: Stamp carving & Clues
mailto:tcgrafx@imagina.com

Daniel Servatius, Age 40, Minnesota: Maps/GPS & Co-web author
mailto:elf@pclink.com

Mitch (Der Mad Stamper) Klink, Age 35, Oregon: Co-web author (Kids
Corner)
mailto:letterboxr@aol.com

Adrian (Have Feet Will Travel) Williams, Age 43, Dartmoor England:
Manager & Letterboxer
mailto:adrian@letterboxing.freeserve.co.uk

Becky Hilts, Age 42, Tennessee: Transplanted Yankee, Finder of first USA
letterbox
mailto:Dmnynkii@aol.com

Julie Jefferies, Age 45, TEXAS: Writer, Artist, Mail artist
mailto:exposto1@airmail.net

Erik Davis, Age 52, Vermont: Architect, Wood turner, Photographer, Book
Collector, Mensan, Husband of World Famous Stamp-carver, Susan Davis
mailto:davisarc@wcvt.com

Todd Brown, Age 35, New York: Hiking, Backpacking, Cub scout leader
mailto:Todd_B@juno.com

Rachel, Age 17, Illinois: Letterboxing & Many-a-hobby
mailto:Harpo73@aol.com

Randy "The Mapsurfer", Pennsylvania
mailto:randy@mapsurfer.com

Steven Stary, Age 25, Wisconsin: Teaching, Photography & Saber fencing
mailto:kurrwic@yahoo.com

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Dan,

Thanks for the note! I agree that hopefully any differences we have had
in the past can be put behind us. I do want to answer your question you
asked below.

>Is ILC now public non-profit? I assume that for "anyone to enter new
>letterboxes any time they wish" means the service is now open and
>non-profit. There was a good deal of confusion on this point the last
>time we corresponded. This resulted in a clear separation of the two
>site's visions/discussions. It also resulted in a certain amount of
>concern (even paranoia) among some of the Dartmoor letterboxers who
>feared the eventuality of a profit-center relating to letterboxing or
>even non-profit promotion which they felt may attract people for the
>wrong reasons and turn the hobby into something undesirable.

ILC certainly has always been nonprofit in the sense that I have totally
supported it without one cent of revenue from anywhere else. I have not
changed my mind about the possibility of generating revenue from
advertising or sales of items (e.g. tshirts, supplies etc) at some point
in the future. However, as I stated before, membership will _always_ be
completely Free and entitles anyone to post clues in the searchable
database (online letterbox catalog) and use any of the onsite resources I
may create. Anyone will be able to access the database to search for
clues- not requiring membership. There is a possibility that at some
point in time the number of letterboxes listed will be significant enough
that I may publish pamphlets for specific geographic regions. These would
be available for purchase. I have decided that anyone who lists
letterboxes in the online letterbox catalog will be able to CHOOSE (via a
preference they can set in their records) whether their box clues will be
included in any other publication I may produce. I also intend to offer
the ability for members to "log" finds of boxes so that you can visit the
site and see how many people have logged a find of any particular
letterbox. Again participation in this is entirely voluntary for any
letterbox owner (i.e. you have to choose to have your box "logable"). I
think this is as fair and open choice as possible.

I do not know how to address any concerns about "attract people for the
wrong reasons and turn the hobby into something undesirable." I have
always believed that NONE of us has ability/right to determine who wants
to participate in letterboxing and how they want to conduct their
participation. It is going to develop in as many ways as creative
individuals wish to devote the time and resources to participate. If the
issue is attempting to remain secretive versus trying to interest more of
the general public, that is where I differ from some. As I have said many
times, I believe there are a great many people who love such a hobby if
they knew it existed. My personal approach is to participate in
activities that promote the hobby to those who haven't yet discovered it.

I really think everyone who has participated has done a great job with
the Letterboxing USA site. It looks quite nice and is very informative
for "newbies". There several letterboxing sites on the net now and I
expect that there will be many more over the forseeable future. I expect
there will even be more mailing lists develop (besides this one and the
letterboxing-talk of ILC) to meet the divergent interest of participants.
Although all the site owners visions will be different, I believe it to
everyone's best interest to cooperate and cross promote to the extent
practical. I would like everyone to post their clues in my catalog. I
will also recommend that anyone with boxes in the USA also post clues on
the Letterbox USA site. I would like to cross promote our discussion
groups as well and perhaps we need to address how they could be
complimentary at some point in the future. I have recently addressed this
question to the letterboxing-talk list (of which many of you also are
members). I would also specifically invite Dan to join again if he wishes.

I hope this clarifies and addresses any lingering concerns Dan may have
had about our differences in the past. If anyone has questions or wants
any clarification of any aspect of my vision/intentions please feel free
to contact me at any time. I will be out of town this weekend so I won't
likely have a chance to answer any emails from Fri until Sunday.



Regards,

Eric Mings Ph.D.


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Daniel Servatius wrote:

> A while back a guy came
> in with some sharp, terse and inappropriate political comments (with
> no apologies). Several members admonished him forthwith. He promptly
> left the list.


ummm, yeah, that and I threatened *offlist* to fly over and kick his
politically inappropriate hindquarters.

--
Thom Cheney
tcgrafx... among other things

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elm@letterboxing.com writes:

> I do not know how to address any concerns about "attract people for the
> wrong reasons and turn the hobby into something undesirable." I have
> always believed that NONE of us has ability/right to determine who wants
> to participate in letterboxing and how they want to conduct their
> participation. It is going to develop in as many ways as creative
> individuals wish to devote the time and resources to participate. If the
> issue is attempting to remain secretive versus trying to interest more of
> the general public, that is where I differ from some. As I have said many
> times, I believe there are a great many people who love such a hobby if
> they knew it existed. My personal approach is to participate in
> activities that promote the hobby to those who haven't yet discovered it.

Eric,
If you explore the archive of this talk list thoroughly, you will find more
than Doc M jokes. You will also find out about some of the traditions and
courtesies associated with our hobby. Granted, the American version of the
hobby is much different than the original UK version. In the UK, they are
VERY secretive about their letterboxes. Some of our UK friends have even had
boxes destroyed in retaliation for a falsely perceived breech of confidence.

In the US, however, we are more tolerant. Still, while there are few formal
'rules' for our hobby, there is a special 'code' amongst letterboxers that
applies on both sides of the big pond. We are, of course, in the very early
stages of development here. Nonetheless, with fewer than 100 boxes in the
country, we have already had at least seven destroyed by vandals. While we
are determined not to let this sort of senselessness ruin our fun, these are
not very promising odds for our first year of activity.

Dan's reference to attracting people for the wrong reasons and turning the
hobby into something undesirable is a reflection of many months of discussion
on this list. We have discussed our desire that this hobby might possibly
reach critical mass and become a legitimate nationwide pastime without drawing
attention from the mainstream populace. This pastime has thrived in Dartmoor
for 145 years while still maintaining this level of 'underground' appeal.

Promotion is necessary, but the concensus of opinion has insisted that it
should be very limited in scope. We have targeted all of our promotion, up to
this point, on very specialized interest groups such as rubber stamp artists,
hikers, orienteering buffs, birdwatchers, scouts, etc. Most of us have very
little interest in having our hobby come to the attention of the general
populace. If we go this route, the likelyhood that online resources such as
Letterboxing USA and the ILC will remain viable means for distribution of
clues is very small. Overexposure will result in vandalism, which will force
the hobby off of the Net.

Letterboxing is for adventurous, inquisitive people. These people will find
us with little effort on our parts. A few carefully placed blurbs in several
specialized media will be adequate for making the information available to
those with enough initiative to discover it. As letterboxers, we all have an
obligation to help protect the code of honor which forbids us from doing
anything that might compromise the sanctity of the boxes of our fellow
hobbyists.

This code of honor also extends to our friends oversees, which is why I
recently suggested that if a certain overzealous web publisher did not remove
some unauthorized Dartmoor clues from his website, that we should consider
encouraging our group members to 'flame' the individual via email. Of course,
this was a last-resort suggestion that should never be acted upon unless the
perpetrator became belligerent about the issue.

My advice on this subject is that we don't allow either of the websites to
become too commercially 'accessible' or we will risk losing the support of the
hobbyists and artisans that make this all possible. Individually, some of us
may have differing visions and opinions, but if our actions run against the
grain of the letterboxing community, we will be left behind and the hobby will
develop without us.

Letterboxing is ALIVE in the United States. It has grown to the point that it
no longer needs any of us to define what it is, or decide how it will grow.
It's going to develop in a way that feels right to the active participants of
the hobby. All we can do, as web developers, is stay in touch with the
feelings of our fellow letterboxers and try to reflect these feelings in our
projects.

Sincerely,
Der Mad Stamper


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Well spoken posting about the issues!

Just a couple of comments I would like to throw out on these issues.
First, is that the issues secrecy and potential for vandalism were
debated extensively on the letterboxing talk list long before this list
existed. Many potential solutions were proposed, and really nothing has
changed about the problem since then. It is a problem and I still believe
that each individual has to consider how it affects the boxes they place.

>Letterboxing is for adventurous, inquisitive people. These people will find
>us with little effort on our parts. A few carefully placed blurbs in several
>specialized media will be adequate for making the information available to
>those with enough initiative to discover it. As letterboxers, we all have an
>obligation to help protect the code of honor which forbids us from doing
>anything that might compromise the sanctity of the boxes of our fellow
>hobbyists.

I believe we have an obligation to allow anyone who participates to
choose how they believe is the best method to safeguard the "sanctity" of
the boxes. There are many options available to individuals who place
boxes.

>This code of honor also extends to our friends oversees, which is why I
>recently suggested that if a certain overzealous web publisher did not remove
>some unauthorized Dartmoor clues from his website, that we should consider
>encouraging our group members to 'flame' the individual via email. Of
>course,
>this was a last-resort suggestion that should never be acted upon unless the
>perpetrator became belligerent about the issue.

Placing clues about someone else's letterbox ANYWHERE without permission,
whether print or web, is totally unacceptable in my opinion. Only the
individual who placed the letterbox should have that decision.

>My advice on this subject is that we don't allow either of the websites to
>become too commercially 'accessible' or we will risk losing the support of
>the
>hobbyists and artisans that make this all possible. Individually, some of us
>may have differing visions and opinions, but if our actions run against the
>grain of the letterboxing community, we will be left behind and the hobby
>will
>develop without us.

The hobby is going to develop in many different ways no matter what any
of us individually thinks about it. I believe we should encourage
creativity, individual choice, diversity, and tolerance. What makes the
hobby "possible" is people of any walk of life who have an interest in
the concept regardless of artistic or physical talents.

>Letterboxing is ALIVE in the United States. It has grown to the point
>that it
>no longer needs any of us to define what it is, or decide how it will grow.
>It's going to develop in a way that feels right to the active participants of
>the hobby. All we can do, as web developers, is stay in touch with the
>feelings of our fellow letterboxers and try to reflect these feelings in our
>projects.

Agreed.

I have recently given much thought again to the issue of secrecy and
individual choice. I intend to modify my database (ILC Online Letterbox
Catalog) to allow box owners a choice of who can see their clues. One
choice is the default now on my site, as well as the way it is on the
Letterbox USA site-- anyone can view them. However, I intend to allow
another choice, the requirement of an access code that is
created/modified/distributed by individual box owners. Thus if someone
would like to control access to who can view their clues, they can set an
access code and only distribute it to those whom they trust. I believe
that ultimately this is the only workable solution for balancing the
power of the internet with individual choice about what level of secrecy
they would like to attach to their participation in the hobby. Comments?


Regards,

Eric Mings Ph.D.


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